Rules for disclosure of asbestos tiles/mastic?
Hello there fellow mid century modern dwellers. I've been a lurker since we bought our house last year and finally decided to register and start being more active.
Its a great site and a great bunch of people.
So, on with the topic...
Can anyone offer any advice or know the rules as far as disclosure of asbestos is concerned? We bought our house, and began remodeling. Upon removal of the carpeting, we found that the floor contained about 60% tiles and 40% mastic only. I took a sample of both to a lab and confirmed they were over 3% asbestos.
So, being a newer family with a newborn, we decided to spend the cash and have it all removed.
Looking back at our disclosure packet, the line that states if the seller is aware of any currently existing toxic waste or materials such as etc, ASBESTOS, etc, etc...they clearly marker the NO box.
I find it hard to believe that the seller would have removed 40% of the tiles, left the underlying mastic, and installed carpet on top without any knowledge about the possibility of asbestos.
Any opinions? We are wondering if asking/demanding payment for removal is possible/reasonable or definitely not possible. If it would have been disclosed, we would have used it for negotiating leverage or had it removed in escrow.
Thanks in advance!
Mr. Glasshaus
(preferring to stay anonymous incase this becomes a legal issue....)
Ha! It's like I'm reading my own story! We had the exact same problem - after we closed escrow, we ripped out the 10 year old stained carpets. And what we did find underneath? The original VAT. And just like in your case, the previous owners had checked the "No" box on the toxic materials/asbestos disclosure.
We contacted our real estate agent, disappointed that they didn't give us a heads up on the possibility of finding VAT/asbestos mastic. After all they've been in the business for two decades and are considered Eichler specialists. But the response we got from them was to the tune of "there's not much you can do about it, such houses usually have asbestos". And I'm wondering if they knew then why the heck they didn't warn us in the first place!?! So basically we were told to suck it up.
We then contacted the previous owners (nice people) and they said they had no knowledge of the VAT still being there. The only other option was to go to an attorney, but we decided the downsides were higher (money, time, effort, etc).
You might want to contact the sellers and ask them to pay for asbestos abatement. But don't be surprised if they tell you that they had no clue about it! Just thinking aloud about this - would it be difficult to prove that the previous owners knew about the existence of VAT or even asbestos in the VAT in a court of law? Plus now it makes sense why RE agents ask their clients to sign a "no litigation, only arbitration" clause in the contract.
The only good thing is we're a little wiser now - next time around (if there is one), we'll make sure we check if the original VAT/mastic is still there during the contingency period while buying.
I'm not sure my response will help you in any way...
PS: We removed the VAT ourselves. We're going to remove the mastic this weekend.
If you can prove that they knew what they were removing was asbestos, you have a case. Or if you can prove that they were really familiar with Eichlers, that could help.
So, do research. Look on this forum and see if they posted any questions about removing asbestos tiles. Ask your neighbors if they were aware of this.
Write EVERYTHING DOWN and DATE IT. You'll need it for later.
If you can get all of this then you have a good case. But, be prepared for it to go on for ever, and it will cost you a lot of money, a whole lot of money.
send me an email and I will go into further detail.
My wife and I experienced the same thing but tenfold worse, with a termite infestation. Trial is set for mid March.
It's been a hassle, but we are so sick of paying people for a service and getting ripped off. You payed your real estate agent 3% of the cost of the house to PROTECT YOU. Makes you mad doesn't it?
After reading Anon's post, I need to tell you this.
It's time that Real Estate Agents like this become a thing of the past.
They all know that a house built prior to 1970 most likely has asbestos.
Yes, they all check the no box, because they are pretty sure you won't spend the hundred grand it will cost you to get it settled.
Call the California Department of Real Estate and lodge a complaint against the Realtor. The Realtor is negligent, bottom line.
Thanks all for the many unique points and general discussion.
I think the biggest problem is needing to go to court in order to prove that the sellers had prior knowledge.
I am a do-it-myself-er and its sometimes hard for me to remember that many homeowners are not. Some can not even hang their own picture frames.
Based on the poor choices made with any prior remodeling and the "quick refresh" approach they agreed to take with their realtor with bottom quality materials, it could be likely that they had no idea what asbestos really is, or that it existed in homes and not just in shipyards in the 40s. Thus, I really point my finger at the realtor who sold the house as someone mentioned.
Thus, it looks like our choices are between:
1. Ask the seller to pay for it out of court which would probably amount to nothing, especially since we took the house as is. (but based on no knowledge of asbestos and not having done enough pre-Eichler research before close.)
2. Take the seller to court and spend way more than the 3K it took to have it removed which would be completely pointless.
3. Take some kind of action against the seller's realtor which could amount to nothing but a permanent omen against the house when it becomes time to sell.
Like Anon talked about, I may just have to chalk this off as a learning experience.
And even with this knowledge in the future on another Eichler purchase, if we again find ourselves in a multi-offer situation, it probably won't even make a difference.
At least we found a good source to have it removed at a fair price.
Good luck in March dommi99...
Thanks all!
Edit: In the end, we decided to do nothing as it wasn't worth the effort or worth burning any bridges that may be needed later on. As mentioned above, if you care about asbestos, find it quickly and negotiate for its removal in the sale price if you have the opportunity. I also learned that there are mixed feelings and evidence on how harmful asbestos really is. If left undisturbed or properly sealed under other materials, it may pose no harmful effects at all. The most dangerous form that I learned about is in the old popcorn ceilings. Removing this in a dry state with no mask would be VERY harmful. Thankfully Eichlers don't normally have popcorn.
Be safe and do your homework before you make any wrong decisions.
Could someone please post pictures of the original asbestos tiles? I have heard that the adhesives that stick these tiles down also contains asbestos. Any truth to that?
JG
they're 9X9in generally and yes, the mastic, too, generally contains asbestos. however, it's not a problem if the tile is left in place. only when it's removed is it released into the air. (for good or bad) aside from the hassle, this is why many folks choose to lay a flooring over the tile (carpet, etc.) thus surprising later owners.
you can see a little here: http://redneckmodern.typepad.com/redneckmodern/2007/12/8050-shay-drive.html
and here: http://redneckmodern.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/31/3.jpg
and the mastic: http://redneckmodern.typepad.com/redneckmodern/2007/07/bean-e-what.html
